Resonance and Enlightenment: Exploring the Zen Experience with Lee Carlson
This podcast episode delves into the profound theme of healing through mindfulness and meditation, as articulated by our esteemed guest, Lee Carlson. Lee elucidates his journey of recovery following a traumatic brain injury, highlighting the pivotal role that Zen practice played in his rehabilitation. We explore the notion of suffering as depicted in the Four Noble Truths and how embracing mindfulness can lead to a transformative understanding of one’s existence. Throughout our discourse, we engage with the interplay between relative and absolute experiences, emphasizing the significance of finding a knowledgeable teacher in one’s spiritual journey. Join us as we unravel these intricate concepts, fostering a deeper appreciation for the interconnectedness of our experiences and the potential for personal growth through mindful practice. The profound exploration of mindfulness and its intersection with personal healing unfolds as I engage in a thought-provoking dialogue with Lee Carlson, a practitioner deeply rooted in the teachings of Zen Buddhism. Lee's journey through trauma and recovery illustrates the transformative power of meditation, emphasizing the necessity of embracing suffering as a pathway to enlightenment. He recounts the pivotal moment of his traumatic brain injury, highlighting how his Zen practice provided him with the resilience and clarity needed to navigate the arduous process of rehabilitation. Our conversation delves into the essence of the Four Noble Truths, where Lee articulates the distinction between relative suffering—rooted in our daily experiences—and the deeper, more existential suffering that permeates the human condition. This duality is essential to understanding the transformative potential of mindfulness practice, which invites us to confront our suffering and find liberation within it. As we traverse the intricate landscapes of healing, Lee emphasizes the importance of finding a supportive community and a wise teacher. He advocates for the development of neuroplasticity through meditation, revealing how consistent practice can reshape our brain's pathways, fostering compassion and mindfulness. Our discussion further illuminates the importance of collective practice, as Lee shares insights on how group meditation can amplify individual journeys, creating a ripple effect of healing and awareness. The anecdote of a monk's realization through a simple act of kicking a stone serves as a poignant metaphor for the unexpected moments of insight that can catalyze profound shifts in perception. Ultimately, this episode serves as a clarion call for those seeking solace in the tumultuous waters of life, encouraging an embrace of both suffering and joy as integral components of our shared human experience.
Takeaways:
- In the podcast, we explore the profound impact of mindfulness and meditation on personal healing and transformation, particularly in the context of traumatic brain injury.
- Lee Carlson shares his remarkable journey of recovery, emphasizing the role of daily meditation in fostering neuroplasticity and enhancing mental resilience.
- The conversation delves into the importance of finding a competent teacher in one's spiritual journey, as well as the invaluable lessons learned through direct mentorship.
- We discuss the intertwined nature of suffering and enlightenment, highlighting how the Four Noble Truths can offer insights into overcoming existential anguish.
- The hosts reflect on the significance of connecting with others through shared experiences, illustrating how collective resonance can lead to deeper understanding and compassion.
- Our dialogue underscores the notion that the path to spiritual awakening is not monolithic; individuals may pursue varying degrees of commitment in their practices, akin to learning an instrument.
Transcript
I'm Anthony Wright and I'm your co host today on the Living Conversation with Adam Dietz.
Speaker A:And we're here with our guest Lee Carlson, who is a 10 practitioner student of Peter Mathiason, who was a student or a dharma heir of my Zumi Roshi.
Speaker A:And before the break, Peter, you were talking about going to teach at a private school about 10 mindfulness and about how the private school was sort of in an uproar because they banned cell phones.
Speaker A:But you know, that brought me back to this idea about the four noble truths, that there is suffering, but there's also an end to suffering.
Speaker A:And you know, one of the breakthroughs that I had after an intense period of some suffering was to go, wait, you know, there's the, the koan of the mosquito biting the iron bull, and the mosquito has to bite and the iron bowl can't be bitten.
Speaker A:And Alan Watts was talking about desire.
Speaker A:And the problem is that when we desire something, we separate ourselves from it.
Speaker A:And I went, oh.
Speaker A:And the, and the problem is that there's really no separation and that I had a breakthrough similar to yours.
Speaker A:And I went, oh, there's no separated Anthony.
Speaker A:There is no Anthony, huh?
Speaker A:There's just what's happening here now and then what's happening with Peter and what's happening with Adam.
Speaker A:And again, another breakthrough point that can come anytime for any of us.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I, I don't know if you remember about the, the story about the, the monk that was walking along a path and he kicked a stone and the stone hit the fence and the sound of the stone hitting the fence, he cracked open.
Speaker A:About that.
Speaker A:So how do we prepare for that opening?
Speaker B:So I love that story.
Speaker B:And it's interesting.
Speaker B:It comes in a number of different versions.
Speaker B:In some versions, he has that opening when he, when he kicks the stone and he gets the pain in his toe, so.
Speaker B:Oh, right.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:You know, and some, but some stories, it's when the stone hits the fence post.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker B:So how do we prepare?
Speaker B:So it depends.
Speaker B:I always say to people, it's like being a being.
Speaker B:Learn to play the piano, right?
Speaker B:There's so many different reasons to learn to play the piano.
Speaker B:You can learn to play the piano just because you want to play a few songs at parties or that you just want to sort of play for yourself.
Speaker B:You can learn to play the piano because you want to be, you know, then you can take the next step because you want to be part of a band.
Speaker B:And you know, and then if you want to go all the way you can want to be a great concert pianist and being a spiritual seeker or Zen person, whatever you want to call it, to me, it's all okay.
Speaker B:Like, all those choices are okay, right?
Speaker B:Like, there's nothing wrong with being.
Speaker B:Just learning a few songs to play at parties.
Speaker B:That's, you know, if that's what you want, and that's.
Speaker B:That's great.
Speaker B:That's not any better or worse than being a, you know, know, famous concert pianist.
Speaker B:And I think with Zen, it's the same way for myself.
Speaker B:I have thrown myself into it in very intense ways.
Speaker B:I'm at the, you know, I'm at the one end of the spectrum.
Speaker B:I'm at the.
Speaker B:I'm not claiming to be, you know, the concert pianist of Zen, but I, you know, I've studied really hard and very long and spent countless tens of thousands of hours in silent meditation and studied with some great teachers.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Yeah, so, you know, so there's that.
Speaker B:But at the same time, you know, my book has appealed to a lot of people who aren't even Zen practitioners who just.
Speaker B:They read it and they love it.
Speaker B:And so, you know, that's the other end of the spectrum.
Speaker B:So how do you prepare yourself?
Speaker B:Well, you could prepare yourself like me and sit on a black cushion for tens of thousands of hours and meet with amazing teachers, or you could prepare yourself by reading a book and thinking about it.
Speaker B:Or, you know, there's a local Zen group.
Speaker B:I'm in Buffalo, New York, right now, and there's a local Zen group that meets once a week, Tuesday nights.
Speaker B:That's all they meet.
Speaker B:I mean, when I was at Peter, I would sit almost, you know, I would sit several times a week with him, and then on my own at home.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But, you know, this group, most of them, once a week is.
Speaker B:Is fine, and that's good.
Speaker B:And that will still.
Speaker B:And then some of them also sit at home.
Speaker B:But that will literally change the physical structure of your brain.
Speaker B:It will create.
Speaker B:So as a traumatic brain injury survivor, I am well versed than moral verse than most people about what they call neuroplasticity and the ability of the brain to change and to reform itself.
Speaker B:And so, you know, it's.
Speaker B:I always say, people say, what is that?
Speaker B:I say, it's a training method.
Speaker B:It's really a training method to train your brain to be a little more compassionate, a little more mindful, and you can take it as far as you want.
Speaker B:You know, it's the opposite of.
Speaker B:Of going into the army and being trained to shoot guns.
Speaker B:And, you know, Fight with people.
Speaker B:And, you know, that's a different kind of training.
Speaker B:It's a training.
Speaker B:So it's a.
Speaker B:How do you prepare yourself?
Speaker B:You can, you know, you can find a local meditation group, you can read books, you can go on YouTube.
Speaker B:There's plenty of people, you know, teaching on YouTube.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, I do think it is important to get with a group of people and with a teacher at some point, because you really are going to feel things and see things and just.
Speaker B:And a teacher is going to see things in you that, you know, a teacher is not going to see through a camera over the Internet and they're going to make suggestions to you.
Speaker B:And, okay, this is, you know, think about this now or, you know, here's this, here's this mantra that you should use or, you know, or you should, whatever.
Speaker B:So I think that there's a lot of things you can do.
Speaker A:So, Adam and you, you had had a.
Speaker A:In.
Speaker A:In.
Speaker A:I remember you talking to me about this when you were early on in college.
Speaker A:You had had an open with a philosophy teacher.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:As you were speaking, Lee, I was very curious.
Speaker C:I do want to circle back on how your practice helped your healing process.
Speaker C:That sounds very interesting to me.
Speaker C:But of the, the.
Speaker C:The spiritual journey, I think is one of the most fascinating things of all our guests that we have two, two themes come up over and over.
Speaker C:Healing and spiritual journey.
Speaker C:The spiritual journey, for me, I think, as you're talking about preparing first is you make a choice, like you're tired of this pattern, you want to try something new.
Speaker C:So, you know, when I had sick when I was 16, I tell this story, I went to go to the library and start researching Buddhism out of the blue because I was tired of my patterns of puppy love that I was in then.
Speaker C:Then it was really interesting though, because then teachers started to appear.
Speaker C:And I think your point about having a teacher is just invaluable.
Speaker C:And it's.
Speaker C:It's like when the pupil's ready, the teacher appears kind of saying.
Speaker C:And then I think when, when.
Speaker C:When someone.
Speaker C:Not to get into a guru worship type of thing, but I think we've all had, all three of us had an experience where a teacher was just so profound for us, there's just nothing that could replace that.
Speaker C:And so I think I want to encourage people that when you find a teacher that you really resonate with, it's almost like put a lot of stuff to the side, dive right into that, really embrace that.
Speaker C:And if, you know, I think that's one of the best ways you can make a lot of progress is the point.
Speaker C:But going back to your healing, your healing journey, I just find it so fascinating.
Speaker C:I assume you were already into Zen Buddhism before you had your accident.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:So, so then after you had your accident, I want to know more about, and I'm so sorry that happened by the way, but I want to know more about what the process was of your meditation and, and your healing process.
Speaker C:And, and I know my, my brother in law had tbi and they said the first year or so is where all this progress made is made.
Speaker C:My father had a stroke.
Speaker C:It was a similar thing.
Speaker C:So I want to ask you, could you really give us a, you know, behind the scenes inside baseball about how that meditation went for you and how you, how you helped your, yourself heal?
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:So you're right.
Speaker B:I, I first stumbled across being interested in Buddhism and Zen in college.
Speaker B:I had a really wonderful teacher, a comparative religion teacher.
Speaker B:I, I read the Snow Leopard by Peter Madison.
Speaker B:It had just come out like, you know, a couple years before.
Speaker B:And the whole story of how I read it is in the book.
Speaker B:It was this amazing sort of coincidence, but, but it, it was between my junior and senior years in college and so I went back to school and I enrolled and I never had any rel.
Speaker B:You know, religious interest really.
Speaker B:But after reading the Snow Leopard, I was like, wow, this is really cool, this whole Buddhism stuff.
Speaker B:So I enrolled in this comparative religions course taught by a wonderful teacher, Dr. Joel Smith.
Speaker B:And he and I are still friends, we're still in touch.
Speaker B:He's retired, but, but anyway, so, so that started me down the path when I'm in my, you know, 21 years old and, and then, but I'm still too young.
Speaker B:I'm still like, you know, into girls and sports and drugs and whatever.
Speaker B:So anyway, so I get married and my wife, you know, I took, I started to get more interested and when you're in New York City, there's some really amazing teachers there.
Speaker B:And I started and, but my wife was a reformed Catholic and she wanted nothing.
Speaker B:She thought anything having to do with any kind of religion she wanted, you know, so I sort of put it on a back shelf.
Speaker B:And so when we started having problems in our marriage, I remembered reading in the Snow Leopard that Peter Matheson lived kind of near where I was living at the time, out on eastern Long island.
Speaker B:And, and the Internet was just coming online and I googled, I found, I found his, his address and I sent him a letter saying, hey, I could use some, you know, Some grounding.
Speaker B:I need something right now.
Speaker B:And I hear you have students.
Speaker B:Are you taking new students?
Speaker B:And he said, yeah, come on over.
Speaker B:And that started a really won, you know, 15 years with him.
Speaker B:And, and it was about.
Speaker B:So I'd been studying with him for about two years when.
Speaker B:When I had my accident.
Speaker B:And my accident was.
Speaker B:For those who don't know who read the book, it's.
Speaker B:I was hit by a car, but I was a pedestrian.
Speaker B:And, and when I was hit by the car, I, I like to view it as like a old Wiley Coyote Roadrunner cartoon where I went flying through the air and came down on my head, and there's, like, circles and stars, you know, flying around my head.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But the reality was I had a traumatic brain injury.
Speaker B:There was cerebral spinal fluid coming out from the crack in my head on the sidewalk, and I was unconscious.
Speaker B:And so I got taken to a neurological icu, and after being there for a little bit, they let me out.
Speaker B:They said, you can't go home because you just can't.
Speaker B:You can't handle that atmosphere.
Speaker B:It would be terrible for your recovery.
Speaker B:Where are you going to go?
Speaker B:So I went to Florida where my father lived, and I lived with him while I went to rehab.
Speaker B:And you're right, the first year is a, like, key.
Speaker B:But there's.
Speaker B:You know, everybody thinks Zen is so serious, and it is, but there.
Speaker B:You have to find the humor in this stuff, too.
Speaker B:So I, I get to Florida, and I.
Speaker B:And I have my first meeting with my new neurologist.
Speaker B:And I'm very sheepishly, I go, I go, you know, he's telling me what I tested out and what happened to me and all this stuff and all this jargon, and I kind of go, excuse me, Mr. Neurologist.
Speaker B:I have this thing I do.
Speaker B:I try to stop my brain from thinking.
Speaker B:I try to, like, stop all thought.
Speaker B:And, And I.
Speaker B:That sounds like that's not really good for my recovery, like, you know, because you're gonna have to retrain me to rethink again.
Speaker B:Literally.
Speaker B:Like, you know, I, I.
Speaker B:And, and he started laughing.
Speaker B:He's like, no, no, no.
Speaker B:He goes, actually.
Speaker B:And he was a young guy, thank God.
Speaker B:He was up on all the latest literature.
Speaker B:And he said, no, all the literature.
Speaker B:Show that that is really good for your recovery.
Speaker B:Meditation will be really wonderful.
Speaker B:I want you to keep doing it.
Speaker B:Don't stop.
Speaker B:Like, you know, it will help your brain heal.
Speaker B:And then he said something really interesting, which I love.
Speaker B:This is another funny part.
Speaker B:He's like.
Speaker B:He's like, yeah, he goes, you might end up being like the Stevie Wonder of Zen students said, you know, just because you've injured certain parts of your brain, other parts of your brain, like your, your, your spiritual side will get stronger to compensate and you might have all sorts of great things.
Speaker B:And I just laughed.
Speaker B:I thought that was really wonderful.
Speaker B:So, you know, not to get into the neurological weeds of what happens, but with neuroplasticity, there's a number of things that can happen.
Speaker B:Like literally there is a part of my brain that is dead.
Speaker B:You can still see it.
Speaker B:Like, I have a new neurologist and he looked at my, my recent brain scans and he was like, oh my God.
Speaker B:And I said, no, no, that's, that's been there.
Speaker B:Like, that's okay.
Speaker B:Because other parts of the brain, you know, kind of take over and, and, but also when you sit every day and you meditate and you're calm and you really develop focus and, and presence and mindfulness and all those things, you are developing those parts of your brain that can do that and you're making them stronger.
Speaker B:Just like, you know, if you want to do bicep curls to make your arms stronger.
Speaker B:What, you know, I mean, you're doing something to make the part of your brain stronger, which is you're developing that mindfulness part.
Speaker B:And you know, they've done studies, they see that it, it literally can change the structure of your brain at a, at a microscopic and a macroscopic level.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, we have to take a short break.
Speaker A:I'm Anthony Wright and I am your co host with Adam Dietz.
Speaker A:And we are talking with our guest, Lee Carlson.
Speaker A:And how can people contact you, Lee?
Speaker B:So my website is the best way.
Speaker B:It's Lee Carlson.life, not dot com, but Lee Carlson life.
Speaker B:Because that's what we're talking about here.
Speaker B:And I want to say one more thing about my website.
Speaker B:If people go there, because we were just talking about the importance of teachers and finding a good teacher, one of those little boxes will pop up asking for your email.
Speaker B:If you want.
Speaker B:You don't have to, but if you want to enter your email, you will get sent to you a 25 page guide to finding a good teacher.
Speaker B:And it covers everything.
Speaker B:And it comes from a chapter in my book.
Speaker B:Because a friend of mine who's a Tai chi master read my book and he read that part of the book.
Speaker B:He goes, oh my God, I wish I could give this to my students.
Speaker B:So many people ask me, how do I find a good teacher?
Speaker B:And I'm like, well, then let's take it out of the book and let's give it away free to people.
Speaker B:And so that's something that you can get if you go there.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:We'll take a short break and be right back.
Speaker A:So stay tuned.
Speaker A:I'm Anthony Wright and I am your co host today with Adam Dietz.
Speaker A:Welcome back.
Speaker A:And we're talking with our guest, Lee Carlson.
Speaker A:And Lee, you were talking about your traumatic brain injury and did you so you found that sitting on the black cushion had helped with the rehabilitation.
Speaker A:Can you speak a little bit more.
Speaker C:About that because it seems like you made such an amazing recovery from such a traumatic event.
Speaker B:Well, that's why I wrote my first book, because the neurologist said to me, he said, you're really lucky.
Speaker B:He said, you one of the few people that went to the edge and came back.
Speaker B:He said a little bit more and you would have been in a wheelchair, drooling for life.
Speaker B:He said, a little bit less, you would have had a concussion.
Speaker B:Not a bad question.
Speaker B:But it wouldn't have been, you know, what you had.
Speaker B:And he said the fact that you have recovered so well and the fact you're a writer.
Speaker B:So now a lot of people know about tbi.
Speaker B:This, this was before the NFL and before, you know, all that stuff.
Speaker B:And so TBI wasn't known as well.
Speaker B:So he said you could really help a lot of people by writing a book about it.
Speaker B:And he said also that would help your recovery because it will get your writing again.
Speaker B:And and so I was very fortunate that I had a really good set of doctors.
Speaker B:Not everybody gets that.
Speaker B:I had good insurance and I had a neurologist and a neuropsychologist and a physical therapist and a brain therapist.
Speaker B:And it was really great.
Speaker B:So I'm sure they help some.
Speaker B:But I also am sure that my Zen practice and my meditating every day and meeting with teachers, I ended up having a different teacher because I wasn't in Long island where Peter was.
Speaker B:So I found another really wonderful teacher in Florida where I was who had been he had lived at Plum Village.
Speaker B:He had been given transmission by Thich Nhat Hahn.
Speaker B:But he is an American.
Speaker B:He's like from Rochester, New York.
Speaker B:So, you know, having people like that to encourage you and to support you and tell you that everything's going to be okay and to, you know, help you with your practice, that was also that was very, very important.
Speaker B:At the same time, you know, it.
Speaker A:Strikes me that particularly now in this time of real difficulty when there is a lot of trauma going around in our everyday life and social life and national life.
Speaker A:What do we do?
Speaker A:And I'm very grateful to be talking with you and doing this work with Adam.
Speaker A:It seems like it's.
Speaker A:We're the ones that.
Speaker A:That are offering assistance in this.
Speaker A:In this way.
Speaker A:And it came to me, you didn't know this before the.
Speaker A:Before the interview, but when you were talking about playing the piano.
Speaker A:I've been a piano technician for 55 years and.
Speaker A:And the piano.
Speaker A:God has taught me so much about the nature of the universe and about how resonance works and about actually how to go into a flow state.
Speaker A:And I think that people go into a flow state part of the time every day.
Speaker A:And in Chinese philosophy, and I think in send to.
Speaker A:There's this idea about forgetting the self.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And talk to us about what your experiences are about forgetting the self in.
Speaker A:In sen. And I bet this happens when you're sailing.
Speaker B:You see the idea of a flow state.
Speaker B:Well, not the idea.
Speaker B:I mean, it's a certainty.
Speaker B:It's not just an idea.
Speaker B:It's a real thing is.
Speaker B:Yes, you see it musicians, you see it in athletes.
Speaker B:You see it in average people like us who are playing music or playing tennis or whatever.
Speaker B:And yes, people feel it.
Speaker B:And then you see it in spiritual seekers and practitioners.
Speaker B:When you're sitting on your cushion, there are many different ways that it manifests itself.
Speaker B:And it just.
Speaker B:It's a.
Speaker B:When it happens and when it happens in a spiritual sense.
Speaker B:And when you have an opening that.
Speaker B:Where you literally.
Speaker B:The self drops away, it's an amazing thing.
Speaker B:But what happens when the self drops away?
Speaker B:You know, there's also.
Speaker B:There's sort of this misconception.
Speaker B:There's a lot of emphasis on.
Speaker B:On emptiness.
Speaker B:And people think emptiness is emptiness.
Speaker B:I say, no, it's not.
Speaker B:It's fullness.
Speaker B:It's like, you know, when the self drops away, what is there and what is there is you become so aware of your place in the universe and your connection to other people and this incredible love that underlies all things.
Speaker B:And, you know, you talk about resonance, you know, from a panel, same thing.
Speaker B:It's like that resonance.
Speaker B:That's one of my favorite sort of visual aids is Indra's jeweled Net.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And it were all these nodes with all these little nodes in this net and that the vibrations are traveling along all the lines that connect all of us and that we're all connected in vibrations in the universe.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker B:And I always say too, like, I'm a conservative guy, believe it or not, like I was raised in a conservative household.
Speaker B:My dad was a businessman, my mother was a homemaker.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not like, you know, Age of Aquarius, like, woo Woo person, but which is what makes it all the more.
Speaker B:You know, I'm very skeptical.
Speaker B:And the fact that I've learned these things and seen these things and experienced these things, to me is.
Speaker B:Is really more testament.
Speaker B:It's a testament to the fact that it's real.
Speaker B:That it's very real.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I remember I was in Japan and with one of these little handheld translators, and I'd just been to Kyoto, to the wonderful temples there, and it was so amazing.
Speaker A:And then I went.
Speaker A:I saw on the Google map, you know, central Zen temple of Nara, which was the large city, and it happened to be like a little neighborhood church.
Speaker A:And I went up to the.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The Zen center and met the monk.
Speaker A:And I didn't speak any Japanese and he didn't speak any English, but I began to say, to study the Buddha way is to study the cell.
Speaker A:To study the self is to forget the self.
Speaker A:He went, ah, which is the Japanese name for Togen.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And there was such warmth there.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:I'll never forget it.
Speaker A:It was the, the kindness and the compassion and the care that I'd actually taken the time to learn about Dogen.
Speaker A:It was so, so wonderful.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:And I can imagine that you've had similar experiences, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think.
Speaker B:I mean, in a number of ways.
Speaker B:First of all, I love Japanese monasteries like that.
Speaker B:I mean, I love giant cathedrals in Europe too.
Speaker B:I mean, I, you know, when I travel, I.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:But at the same time, even the big Japanese monasteries, they feel like little villages.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, there's a lot of buildings and there's monks wandering around and there's, you know, people tourists wandering around.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And even if it has a big hall, like a main hall, there's all these little other buildings.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I just.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's very cool.
Speaker B:And the other part that I, I love is that you will find that most advanced spiritual teachers, practitioners, I think, are like that monk that they're just really have a little twinkle in their eye and a smile on their face.
Speaker B:I mean, the Dalai Lama has it, my teachers had it.
Speaker B:Hopefully I have it.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:Because you.
Speaker B:You get to this place where you just realize just, yeah, everything is pretty wonderful and pretty cool and everything is.
Speaker B:Is like, you know, and again, you smile.
Speaker B:There's a saying that, you know, you're.
Speaker B:The first time you experience that as A when you're sitting on your cushion is your soul smiles.
Speaker B:And the first time your soul smiles, you're like, whoa, what was that?
Speaker B:So I love it.
Speaker A:The words in Chinese for resonance are ganying.
Speaker A:And I've translated them to say to.
Speaker A:To be so sincere that it almost wounds the heart so that we can fly from a cliff together like a flock of birds.
Speaker A:And that's, that's that experience.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And Adam, your experience with.
Speaker C:There's so much.
Speaker C:There's so much.
Speaker C:There are two things that are coming to mind right now is one, when in the Confucian tradition, which deeply influenced Zen Buddhism, I, I just wrote an article, I submitted an article talking about how the Analects almost read like koans.
Speaker C:This, Confucius and this, this student teacher relationship.
Speaker C:In that tradition, when we investigate things, we extend our knowledge into all things.
Speaker C:When we extend our knowledge into all things, we realize the oneness that we have.
Speaker C:So then we could have.
Speaker C:We can make our thoughts sincere.
Speaker C:And that when you, when you were speaking it about the different sense that you get from a high level spiritual practitioner is that they realize we are all the same.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker C:We all have the same oneness underneath us.
Speaker C:And so how in a sense of reverence comes through.
Speaker C:It's like, how could you not just revere everything so deeply when.
Speaker C:When you know the source that they have within them?
Speaker C:That was one thing that came to mind.
Speaker C:Another thing that I was clear as you were speaking as well was when.
Speaker C:This is previously when the students would.
Speaker C:We have a lineage now in the west where we could think like people like Carl Jung, who opened up Eastern philosophy for us.
Speaker C:So now everyone knows Zen.
Speaker C:So, you know, knows Zen, they say, oh, that's so Zen is the, the thing that young people say now.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So my third year or second year of teaching, I decided, okay, these students all have beginner mind.
Speaker C:So I'm gonna ask them what is Zen?
Speaker C:And the answers were unbelievable.
Speaker C:It was beautiful.
Speaker C:I mean, they all had a sense of what Zen was from their beginner mind.
Speaker C:And it was all so similar to flow state when I'm out walking, when I'm playing music, this kind of thing.
Speaker C:So I just wanted to make that connection.
Speaker C:And yeah, I don't really necessarily have any more questions, although I do.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:I will be a kind of a stickler here in the tradition, actually Confucian philosophy, there's no evil, there's only.
Speaker C:From Mencius, there's no evil, there's only.
Speaker C:There's only going your wrong way.
Speaker C:So you have a proper way or deviation.
Speaker C:Also in.
Speaker C:In the yin and Yang theory, yin is.
Speaker C:Is good.
Speaker C:There's no good and evil.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:It's that there's.
Speaker C:There's light and dark only.
Speaker C:So yin is just the dark side of the mountain.
Speaker C:So I want to.
Speaker C:I want to go back to what you were talking about in the very beginning when you were talking about these are darkness in people.
Speaker C:And I think I can.
Speaker C:I can kind of sense that, like, you can see people kind of grappling with things, is what I'm thinking, or maybe their anger or their fears and anxieties.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker C:Yeah, how do you.
Speaker C:How do you synthesize the sense of the good and evil type of feeling that you had and the sense of the darkness in people?
Speaker C:With this idea in Chinese philosophy that there's just deviation, even trump or whoever, just.
Speaker C:They went the wrong way.
Speaker C:They didn't follow their own way.
Speaker B:So in.
Speaker B:In the Zen tradition that Peter taught, there's a very famous chant.
Speaker B:It's a poem, some people call it a poem that gets chanted at a lot of Zen centers every.
Speaker B:You know, every day.
Speaker B:And it's called the Sandakai.
Speaker B:And the Sandakai translates as the identity of relative and absolute.
Speaker B:And so what it means is that there's really two parts to life.
Speaker B:There's the relative, which is what we're living in every day, which is, you know, how we relate to the world and how the world relates to us, how we relate to other people.
Speaker B:And it's, you know, anger and sadness and even evil, if you want to call it evil, I'd prefer to just call it darkness.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:And then there's the Absolute.
Speaker B:And the absolute is what many of us strive to.
Speaker B:To be exposed to, to.
Speaker B:To understand.
Speaker B:And the Absolute is.
Speaker B:Is beyond our understanding, but just to experience it is.
Speaker B:Is amazing.
Speaker B:And when you experience it, it's just this pure energy of love.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And there is no evil.
Speaker B:There is no dirt.
Speaker B:It's just like this.
Speaker B:Everything is perfect.
Speaker B:Everything is correct.
Speaker B:Everything is.
Speaker B:Is right exactly the way it is.
Speaker B:And in the sandecai, there are a couple lines.
Speaker B:One line is that the relative and the absolute meet like two arrow points high in the air.
Speaker B:Or the relative and the Absolute fit together like a box in its lid.
Speaker B:And so that is the ultimate goal, to synthesize these two into your understanding, into your life.
Speaker B:That, yes, there is messiness and evil and darkness, and there's also light.
Speaker B:And that's sort of the relative.
Speaker B:And how does that synthesize with the fact that there is no Evil.
Speaker B:There is no darkness.
Speaker B:That everything is perfect and complete just as it is.
Speaker B:It's really hard to do.
Speaker B:It's hard to explain.
Speaker B:It's, it's.
Speaker B:You got to experience it and do it, do the work.
Speaker B:And it's not something most people, you know, will ever experience.
Speaker B:To most people it will be a theory, but if to some people who have experienced it, it's a reality, I.
Speaker A:Think it could be available in a flow state.
Speaker A:Would you say?
Speaker B:Yeah, I would say if you know.
Speaker B:But it's even more than a flow state.
Speaker B:It takes flow state like one step further.
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker B:And, and it's.
Speaker B:I, I wrote about it in the last chapter of my book because the book is set up.
Speaker B:It's sort of like a two act play where it's like dramaturgy.
Speaker B:Like it kind of builds to the action, builds to this amazing moment.
Speaker B:And the, in the first, the end of the first half of the book, and that's that moment I talked about was seeing the energy.
Speaker B:And then it kind of goes down again.
Speaker B:Then the action builds again to this last moment on Ocean beach where I was able to really see and understand this and experience it.
Speaker B:And it's, it's, it's pretty amazing.
Speaker B:I will say too, I want to say one more thing, since you guys are both very well versed in this, which I love, because not everybody interviews me, you know, knows a lot of these things.
Speaker B:There's another moment in the book, and this, this could be controversial with some Zen teachers, I will readily admit that.
Speaker B:But the four Noble Truths, the truth of suffering, it in my mind is.
Speaker B:Well, it's, it's not, it's not that it's taught wrong, but it's just not taught as far as it could go.
Speaker B:So, and it's again, this idea of relative and absolute.
Speaker B:Most teachers teach about suffering like relative suffering.
Speaker B:You know, the suffering we experience in our everyday lives.
Speaker B:You know, the loss of a loved one, the loss of a job, you know, money problems, brain injury, you know, whatever, divorce.
Speaker B:And, and that's certainly true as far as it goes.
Speaker B:And there is a way out of that.
Speaker B:And the way out of that is to sit and meditate and to become more mindful and happy and have your soul smile.
Speaker B:But the Buddha was talking about something even more profound.
Speaker B:The Buddha was talking about suffering in an absolute sense and suffering in an absolute sense.
Speaker B:And I've only seen it a couple times, but when you see it and again a switch flips in your brain and everybody around you, even the happiest person in the world or you think is the happiest person in the world, exhibits some suffering on their face and in their body and in their being.
Speaker B:You see it, you're kind of like, oh, my God.
Speaker B:And the first time it happened to me, it was some, some people that were much serious Brent technicians than I was.
Speaker B:And I thought to myself, they can't be suffering.
Speaker B:Like, how can this be?
Speaker B:But they were.
Speaker B:And I think that Christianity, a lot of other spiritual traditions try to explain this in other ways in spirit.
Speaker B:In Christianity, it's the idea of Adam, Eve, it's that idea of original sin.
Speaker B:Like we have something original that just causes us to suffer.
Speaker B:And the Buddha saw that.
Speaker B:That was what his incredible breakthrough was.
Speaker B:Sitting under the Bodhi tree that night.
Speaker B:He saw the truth of suffering is what he taught.
Speaker B:And that's why the very first teaching that he gave after that happened was the truth of suffering, because he saw this absolute suffering that is the human condition.
Speaker B:Some people call it malaise, some people call it, oh, I don't know, you know, existential angst, but it's there.
Speaker B:And, and we all know it deep down, we all feel it.
Speaker B:And, and what the Buddha taught was there is a way out of suffering.
Speaker B:And the way out of suffering is to sit and meditate and you gotta really work at it.
Speaker B:I mean, he worked at it like crazy, but.
Speaker B:But it is something that you can experience so.
Speaker A:Well, I'm afraid we're out of time.
Speaker A:I'm so grateful, Lee, to be able to talk with you about this.
Speaker A:I'm Anthony Wright and I'm your co host today on the Living Conversation with Adam Dietz.
Speaker C:Thanks for joining the conversation.
Speaker A:And we've been talking with our guest, Lee Carlson.
Speaker A:And how can people contact you, Lee?
Speaker B:So best way is my website, which is Lee Carlson life, not Lee Carlson.com Lee Carl's now Life, because that's what we're talking about here.
Speaker B:And, and, and on the website is lots of contact info, email, phone, how you can reach me in social media, all that good stuff.
Speaker B:And right over my shoulder here, there are my two books.
Speaker B:That's a single excellent Night is the one close to me and Pastor Nirvana is the other one.
Speaker B:That's the green, the green cover.
Speaker B:So great.
Speaker A:Well, thank you so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time.
