From Firewood to Enlightenment: The Remarkable Story of Hui Neng
The narrative presented in this episode elucidates the profound journey of Hui Neng, the first patriarch of Zen Buddhism, whose extraordinary life trajectory defied the conventions of his time. Initially an illiterate and impoverished laborer, Hui Neng's serendipitous encounter with the recitation of the Diamond Sutra catalyzed his instant enlightenment, marking a pivotal moment in the evolution of Zen thought. This episode delves into the intricate interplay between Buddhism and Taoism, expounding upon the philosophical underpinnings that shaped Hui Neng's experiences and teachings. We further explore the ensuing contest within the monastery, where Hui Neng's unorthodox insights challenged the established paradigms of enlightenment and knowledge. Through a detailed examination of his life and the implications of his teachings, we aim to illuminate the enduring legacy of Hui Neng and his revolutionary approach to spiritual awakening.
The narrative encapsulates the remarkable journey of Hui Neng, the sixth patriarch of Zen Buddhism, who emerged from obscurity to become a pivotal figure in the spiritual landscape of China. Born into a family that faced political ostracism, Hui Neng lived in Guangdong province, distanced from the cultural and intellectual heart of the country. Despite his humble beginnings as an illiterate wood gatherer, his life took a transformative turn upon hearing the Diamond Sutra, a text revered for its profound insights. This moment of revelation catalyzed his enlightenment, allowing him to perceive the essence of mind without formal education or prior study. His subsequent journey to a monastery to further explore Buddhism is marked by both physical and metaphorical challenges, emphasizing the theme of perseverance in the quest for spiritual understanding. Hui Neng's story serves as a poignant reminder of the potential for enlightenment irrespective of one's social status or educational background, ultimately culminating in his recognition as a leader in Zen Buddhism, where he challenged established norms and advocated for a direct, personal experience of enlightenment beyond scholarly pursuits.
Takeaways:
- Huineng, the first patriarch of Zen Buddhism, emerged from a humble background marked by adversity and ignorance.
- The Diamond Sutra played a pivotal role in Huineng's enlightenment, signifying its profound impact on Buddhist philosophy.
- The story of Huineng illustrates the concept of sudden enlightenment, challenging traditional beliefs about intellectual attainment in Buddhism.
- Buddhism and Taoism share a deep connection, as evidenced in the teachings and practices that influenced Zen Buddhism's development.
Links referenced in this episode:
- theonaut.com
- dietzadam@gmail.com
- thewaybetween.substack.com
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker B:I'm Anthony Wright and I am your co host on the Living Conversation with Adam Dietz.
Speaker B:And Adam, before the break, we were talking about the first patriarch of 10 and 10 Buddhism was a combination and I believe it was Karuma Jiva was the Indian monk that came to China.
Speaker A:And the Bodhidharma, I don't know.
Speaker B:So 10 Buddhism is a combination of Taoism and Buddhism.
Speaker B:And Huyning as the first patriarch was a. I think he was a dishwasher.
Speaker A:He just gathered sticks for, for kindling, for firewood.
Speaker B:But wasn't he a dishwasher in the monastery?
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:Oh, he maybe he also, he also milled the rice.
Speaker B:Oh that's right.
Speaker B:That's right.
Speaker B:Well, talk to us about what you remember about Huning.
Speaker A:Well, Hui Nang's story is the beginning, is one of the truly unique scenario.
Speaker A:I don't want to know how much to get into it.
Speaker A:But basically he had the worst fate because everyone wanted to be at the heart of culture and so to be.
Speaker A:His father was ostracized from the capital.
Speaker B:Oh really?
Speaker A:Through political intrigue, I believe.
Speaker B:I didn't know that.
Speaker A:And so he had to go to far south of China, Guangdong province.
Speaker A:And so the farther you were from the capital this time, the less you felt connected to the cultural life and heartbeat.
Speaker B:Right, right.
Speaker A:Really going on.
Speaker A:And so it was really difficult.
Speaker A:So people, the further you were from the capital, I call you barbarian.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So his father actually not only was ostracized with his family and his wife and his son to Guangdong province, but his father also died when Huang was very young.
Speaker A:So now Huang has no father.
Speaker A:Huang actually is, has no education.
Speaker A:He's illiterate.
Speaker A:Illiterate.
Speaker A:All he can do is the lowest job is like going, you know, if someone has no job, one thing they used to do in the 80s and 90s, they would go to wash your car windshield at a stoplight and try to get some money.
Speaker A:So the, the ver.
Speaker A:The ancient Chinese Guangdong version of this was, this is around a thousand A.D. was you just go into the forest, you gather sticks and you bring them back to sell for people to have for fuel.
Speaker A:So this is very low job for Huineng and he has no education at this time.
Speaker A:Buddhism is flourishing.
Speaker A:All people throughout the country are so intrigued with this high level mind.
Speaker A:I also agree that Buddhism, Zen Buddhism came out of Taoism.
Speaker A:I also feel like Confucianism because Confucianism was having this conversation, this teaching individual Confucius would teach each student individually to their nature and Zen Buddhism, you will see, really does that.
Speaker B:Oh, right.
Speaker A:And, and, and Confucius gave a value of self cultivation, education.
Speaker A:So people all throughout the country here, oh my goodness, the enlightenment mind, the highest level of humanity is in Buddhism.
Speaker A:I want to go run to this monastery and devote my life to my highest level mind.
Speaker A:So at this time, there's a rush to go into a monastery and learn deeply study all the scriptures called sutras of Buddhism.
Speaker A:But Huang is as far from this as possible.
Speaker A:These are all very high minded people that had status and wealth and education that go to the monastery.
Speaker A:Hung is far from this all in that context.
Speaker A:What happens next in the story is remarkable and legendary.
Speaker A:One Abbott sent out his monks to go and recite Diamond Sutra across the land.
Speaker A:Diamond Sutra?
Speaker A:Diamond Sutra.
Speaker B:And the Diamond Sutra was a text that was supposed, supposed to cut through the hardest.
Speaker B:Yeah, it would cut through it.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So diamond, it's called Diamond Sutra because like Anthony said, like you're saying it is the hardest thing.
Speaker A:And we'll get to what it can cut in a minute.
Speaker A:Because Hui then is finishing up a delivery of firewood from one of his businesses.
Speaker A:They, they take good care of him.
Speaker A:They say, bring us a firewood, we'll pay you.
Speaker A:It's almost like charity.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Then he walks out of that delivery and he hears a diamond sutra.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:He's illiterate, can't read it, but he hears it.
Speaker A:In that moment, he achieves instant enlightenment.
Speaker A:Because the Diamond Sutra is meant to cut through the hardest thing in the world.
Speaker A:Diamond cutter Sutra, like a diamond sword can cut off your ego in an instant.
Speaker A:You can have no ego.
Speaker A:So when then here's this.
Speaker A:And he is enlightened.
Speaker A:Remarkable.
Speaker A:Remarkable.
Speaker A:So he asked this monk, what are you doing?
Speaker A:Where did you come from?
Speaker A:What are these words?
Speaker A:And the monk tell them, I am a monk from this monastery of, you know, a few months journey away by foot.
Speaker A:I've been taught, told by the abbot to recite this is the Diamond Sutra, and explains to him, diamond Sutra.
Speaker A:So the, the neighbors and the monk and the business owner encouraged Hui Nang to go with the monk back to this monastery.
Speaker A:They realized he had a really, truly unique experience and that he should go investigate this.
Speaker A:So Hui Neng goes.
Speaker A:He gets everything set up so his mother can be taken care of.
Speaker A:They all kind of sponsor him to go.
Speaker A:So he goes in this, this, I believe it's a month or two long journey through the mountains of southern China to get to central China.
Speaker A:I believe I've been there.
Speaker A:It's Very beautiful, but also very treacherous terrain to try and navigate.
Speaker A:Lots of mountains.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Travel was really a treacherous.
Speaker B:Of a dangerous thing in those days, right?
Speaker A:Bandits and things like this.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:But so he makes a big effort.
Speaker A:And when he arrives, he has a conversation with the.
Speaker A:The head Abbott and, and.
Speaker A:And the head Abbott says, what are you doing here, barbarian?
Speaker A:And he says.
Speaker A:He says, I have seen the true nature of my mind.
Speaker A:Something like this, the essence of mind.
Speaker A:And the ad instantly sees.
Speaker A:Oh, they have a conversation like a con.
Speaker A:And he said, oh, he's very enlightened, but he's a barbarian.
Speaker A:Everyone will be jealous.
Speaker A:And it will.
Speaker A:It will make a big uproar because people here have been dedicating their lives for years to cultivate enlightenment, to learn Buddhism every day, meditate every day, study scripture.
Speaker A:And here comes someone, a barbarian just walking with no education.
Speaker A:He can be in enlightened.
Speaker A:It will throw everything upside down.
Speaker A:So he tells him, oh, this barbarian is too bright.
Speaker A:Go over and just shuck the rice away from the monastery.
Speaker A:Go take care of us.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The neighboring building next door.
Speaker A:Part of our.
Speaker A:Our development here, where you just got to shuck the rice and stay out of here.
Speaker A:So Hung H does this for months.
Speaker A:For months.
Speaker A:The next.
Speaker A:The next thing that happens in the monastery is that the head abbot, he has basically a contest.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Everyone, you write a poem.
Speaker A:If it's good stanza, then I will give you the.
Speaker A:The symbol of my.
Speaker A:My patriarchy.
Speaker A:The highest level Zen.
Speaker A:Sorry, Buddhist monk of this Abbott, the abbot, the symbol of me.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:I'll pass on the lineage to you.
Speaker A:This also has to do with a story called record of transmission of the lamp.
Speaker B:Oh, right, exactly.
Speaker A:I'll transmit to you the symbol robe and bull and the true dharma enlightenment if you write a good stanza.
Speaker A:So everyone says, okay, I only know there's one student in this whole place that can even possibly pull this off.
Speaker A:I think his name is Sensue.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And the Dharma, by the way, is translated as the law, but it's the way of Buddhism.
Speaker B:Is that right?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:The highest level truth, the enlightenment.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker A:So no one even bothers.
Speaker A:And even this one most talented monk who everyone thinks will could possibly put us.
Speaker A:Sensue, I think, is his name.
Speaker A:He even is very hesitant.
Speaker A:He is so fearful that he'll write a stanza that's not good enough.
Speaker A:He doesn't even want to do it.
Speaker A:So he just goes into one corridor or hall, maybe meditation hall.
Speaker A:I'm not sure what kind of hall, but one of the halls of The.
Speaker A:Of the monastery that's being repainted.
Speaker A:So it's like they have primer on the wall.
Speaker A:So he goes up to this primer and he writes his poem on there, thinking, okay, if it's good, then I can say it's mine.
Speaker A:If it's bad, and the Abbott said, this is bad, I'll just hide and be shy.
Speaker B:Paint over it.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So he writes a poem on the wall.
Speaker A:It is the.
Speaker A:The mind is like a mirror.
Speaker A:Bright.
Speaker A:Every day.
Speaker A:We should polish it, wipe it clean hour by hour.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:The mind is a.
Speaker A:And then a Bodhi tree, something like that.
Speaker A:I forget.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:But everything.
Speaker B:We should.
Speaker A:Every day.
Speaker A:We should clean our mind.
Speaker A:We should polish our mind.
Speaker A:We should let no dust alight.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Responds in the moment without thought.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, it's.
Speaker A:It has.
Speaker A:So anyway, what happens?
Speaker A:Let's see.
Speaker A:Let's come back to that.
Speaker A:Because the Abbott comes and says, this is close, but not good enough.
Speaker A:But everyone should.
Speaker A:It has merit.
Speaker A:So it's close.
Speaker A:So if you recite this and learn it and take it to heart, we'll keep it here.
Speaker A:It will help all of you get closer to enlightenment.
Speaker A:What were you saying a second ago?
Speaker B:Oh, well.
Speaker B:And the.
Speaker B:The image of the mirror was.
Speaker B:The mirror responds without thought.
Speaker B:You know, reflects immediately.
Speaker B:But still, there's the idea.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Of this mirror.
Speaker A:Well, then we have.
Speaker A:So then what happens?
Speaker A:He's saying, keep your mind clean.
Speaker A:Keep your mirror clean.
Speaker A:Then you can reflect purely.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:That's what.
Speaker A:That's what he's saying.
Speaker A:And so the Abbott says, oh, this has some merit.
Speaker A:Everyone recite it.
Speaker A:It's not enlightenment, but it's very close.
Speaker A:And if you recited, you'll have some merit.
Speaker A:It'll be very good for you.
Speaker A:Merit means you'll.
Speaker A:You'll get a more Buddhist achievement.
Speaker A:Get closer to enlightenment.
Speaker A:So everyone's reciting this poem, including just a boy who is like a stable hand or something like that, around.
Speaker A:Kind of helper around the monastery.
Speaker A:A boy is reciting this poem.
Speaker A:So Hui Nang is just in the building, doing his manual labor, shucking rice, being hidden away from everyone.
Speaker A:He hears this poem.
Speaker A:The mind is like a Bodhi tree.
Speaker A:I forget.
Speaker A:But the mirror is the important part.
Speaker A:So then, Hui Meng, he can't write.
Speaker B:He's illiterate.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:He hears it, and he asked the boy, what in the world are you saying?
Speaker A:What are those words?
Speaker A:And the boy explains, oh, you barbarian.
Speaker A:The abbot told us all to learn this.
Speaker A:Even know this.
Speaker A:You barbarian.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And like oh, I'm so sorry.
Speaker A:Just take pity on me, please.
Speaker A:Just tell me more about it.
Speaker A:So the boy tells him the words, tells him about the contest.
Speaker A:So the, the Huang tells the boy, please show me this.
Speaker A:When Huen arrives, there is a local, I want to say, like a local sheriff or something who's come to kind of study this poem and, and pay homage to this poem and learn it for his own merit.
Speaker A:A layperson.
Speaker A:So Huang actually asked this person, can you please write a poem next to it?
Speaker A:And the person says, you're so low.
Speaker A:Why should you write a poem?
Speaker A:You're a barbarian.
Speaker A:How can you have enlightenment to put a poem here?
Speaker A:Huineng says, please, the difference between rich and poor in our Buddha nature is the same.
Speaker A:The highest person in the world could be a dummy.
Speaker A:If you have a high position, could be you could still be dumb.
Speaker A:Or the lowest person could have enlightenment in Buddha nature.
Speaker A:Please just take pity and write this poem for me on the wall.
Speaker B:Well, I'm going to stop you right now.
Speaker B:You got to take a break and tune in after the break to learn what happened with Huy Nang and the.
Speaker A:Poem on the wall.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And I'm your co host on the Living Conversation and you can contact me through my website, theonaut T-H-E-O-N-A-U-T.com and Adam, how can Google contact you?
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm Adam Dietz and you can contact me@deetsadammail.com or look on substack, find me at the way between.substack.com Great.
Speaker B:All right, we're going to take a short break and be right back.
Speaker B:So stay tuned for the end of the Hui Nang story.
Speaker A:Foreign.
Speaker B:I'm Anthony Wright and I am your co host on Attunement, the Living Conversation with my co host.
Speaker A:Yeah, Adam Dietz.
Speaker B:And Adam, before the break, we were talking about winning and how he had heard someone reciting the Diamond Sutra.
Speaker B:And the abbot in the monastery had a contest.
Speaker B:And the head.
Speaker B:Was it the head monk who came up with this verse that, that you found?
Speaker A:Yeah, Sensue was like the top student basically.
Speaker B:Okay, so what was his.
Speaker B:What was the poem that he wrote?
Speaker A:Yeah, he wrote on the wall, our body is the Bodhi tree and our mind a mirror bright.
Speaker A:Careful.
Speaker A:Wipe them hour by hour and let no dust alight.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So what happens next, man?
Speaker A:Yeah, so when Nang goes to see this poem and he asks someone to kindly write a poem next to it of his own making, of Huang's own Making.
Speaker B:And he can't.
Speaker B:He can't do it himself because he can't read or write.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Which is just phenomenal, just remarkable, according to the way, you know, it sends such a message.
Speaker A:Because what happens next is that he writes this poem.
Speaker A:He says, there is no Bodhi tree nor stand of a mirror bright.
Speaker A:Since all it is void, where can the dust alight?
Speaker A:So you say original.
Speaker A:Original.
Speaker A:There's nothing since originally there's nothing.
Speaker A:Originally there's nothing.
Speaker A:There's a void since originally there's nothing where can the dust alight?
Speaker A:So he writes this poem, and the boy and the official who help him write it are very impressed.
Speaker A:And so this poem gathers quite a stir, a clamor in the monastery.
Speaker A:It's so much so that they invite the abbot over.
Speaker A:And the abbot sees this poem and he says, oh, he knows the person.
Speaker A:Author has enlightenment.
Speaker B:Yep, yep.
Speaker A:But the story, I mean, we can continue on with the story.
Speaker A:The point is what.
Speaker A:What happens next, I think is kind of the.
Speaker A:The climax.
Speaker A:The Abbott actually takes the poem and rubs it off with his shoe.
Speaker A:There's no enlightenment here.
Speaker A:Nothing.
Speaker A:Nothing to see here and tell us Wainang to go back and keep shucking the rice.
Speaker A:But actually in secret, in the.
Speaker A:In the night, the abbot comes to Huang and says he.
Speaker A:Actually they start this Zen Buddhist kind of conversation.
Speaker A:He asks Huang when he arrives.
Speaker A:Actually, it's probably not.
Speaker A:It's probably later in the afternoon.
Speaker A:He's still working like have schedule another conversation for at night.
Speaker A:But he asked, is the rice ready?
Speaker B:Oh, right.
Speaker A:Is.
Speaker A:Is a signature of Zen Buddhism.
Speaker A:He asks, is the rice ready?
Speaker A:Huang Nang knows this is a moment in.
Speaker A:In Blue Cliff record that we studied with Dr. Wu, another important Buddhist text.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:This means like, okay, everyone, we're starting the enlightenment conversation.
Speaker A:Talk about the living conversation.
Speaker A:The enlightenment conversation is coming.
Speaker A:So Dr. Wu, I think he called it a G. G. A subtlety has come.
Speaker A:G. So now Huineng also.
Speaker A:Oh, this Abbott is testing me.
Speaker A:Is the rice ready?
Speaker A:And so he knows this is enlightenment language talk.
Speaker A:He says it was ready long ago, just waiting for the sieve.
Speaker A:See, this is all.
Speaker A:Sorry, Siv.
Speaker A:This is all code that.
Speaker A:Is your mind ready?
Speaker A:Is your enlightenment ready?
Speaker A:My mind has been here since the beginning of the universe.
Speaker A:Of course, as long ago.
Speaker A:Of course it's ready long ago.
Speaker A:Just waiting for you Abbott to help filter it out, help me take the next step.
Speaker A:So the Abbott simply pounds on the ground with his staff three times.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And Hui Ng says, oh, the Abbott wants to see Me at the third watch of the night.
Speaker A:For the third watch of the night, Huy Nang goes to the abbot.
Speaker A:It's all very secret, because they know if this illiterate barbarian who just arrived has enlightenment, this throws everything of Buddhist structure out the window that he can have sudden enlightenment.
Speaker A:This is why he's the first patriarch of Zen Buddhism.
Speaker A:He has sun enlightened in one moment.
Speaker A:Diamond Sutra cut off all ego enlightenment.
Speaker A:So this is very radical.
Speaker A:But when Hui Nang arrives to the abbot, then they have discussion.
Speaker A:Basically.
Speaker A:Basically, not to get too much in the details, but the abbot says, you are enlightened.
Speaker A:You have seen the essence of mind.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:And says you will be the next patriarch of Zen Buddhism.
Speaker A:But you have to hide away and run away for a while, because at.
Speaker B:That time that he gives him the.
Speaker A:Robe in the bowl.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:And he gives him the dharma.
Speaker B:He the.
Speaker A:The full enlightenment.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so Huinang says, at that moment, my mind was fully enlightened.
Speaker A:So Huy Nang takes over this lineage.
Speaker A:He's the next highest monk in Buddhism.
Speaker A:And so he's called maybe a sixth patriarch of.
Speaker A:Of Chinese Buddhism.
Speaker A:33rd patriarch.
Speaker A:Trace back a lineage all the way to Buddha.
Speaker B:Oh, yes.
Speaker A:First patriarch of Zen Buddhism.
Speaker A:Sudden enlightened or Chinese Chan Buddhism.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm remembering another story, and I think this was from a monk that was studying Hunang's experience.
Speaker B:And so for years he studied the Dharma and sat, and he was walking along, and his foot kicked a pebble against a bamboo fence.
Speaker B:And the sound of the pebble hitting the fence cracked him open.
Speaker B:Do you know that story?
Speaker A:I don't remember.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker B:But it's this idea or this understanding about that we can have sudden enlightenment after 30 years or after five minutes.
Speaker B:It's always there.
Speaker B:It's always ready to have.
Speaker B:And I want to offer a story, and maybe I've told it before.
Speaker B:About 25 years ago, I fell in love with a woman and had a relationship, and she decided to leave the relationship.
Speaker B:And I went into grief for a number of years.
Speaker B:And Alan Watts had spoken about this idea of the mosquito biting the iron bull.
Speaker B:And it's about this idea that when we desire something, as I desired that relationship and was really compelled by that deep grief, but I desired the relationship.
Speaker B:And he said, when you desire something, you separate yourself from it.
Speaker B:And the elute.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:And that's the problem is the illusion is that we are separated individuals.
Speaker B:And that was my pebble against the fence.
Speaker B:I went, oh, oh, there's no separated.
Speaker B:Anthony There is no Anthony that's separate from all of this.
Speaker B:There is no Adam.
Speaker B:There is no separate listener, you, who is listening to us.
Speaker B:It's all the cosmos doing what it does, wherever the you happens to be.
Speaker B:But it's all one thing.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker B:I want to bring this a little bit.
Speaker B:There's also a story that I tell my students about in complexity science, which I also studied chaos theory.
Speaker B:There's this idea about.
Speaker B:Mandelbrot wrote a paper called how long is the coastline of Britain?
Speaker B:And the answer is, it depends.
Speaker B:So you get 100 kilometer rulers going around the outside of the.
Speaker B:Of the British island.
Speaker B:You get so many of those.
Speaker B:Well, how about a 50 kilometer?
Speaker B:Well, you get more because you go into the indentations.
Speaker B:And the coastline paradox goes like this.
Speaker B:The shorter the unit of measurement, the longer gets that which is measured, until when the unit of measurement reaches zero, that which is measured becomes infinite.
Speaker B:And so I offered to my students the analogy.
Speaker B:Then when we stop making an arbitrary distinction between ourselves, this idea of separatedness, when we stop making that, then we become one being.
Speaker B:I don't know if you'd.
Speaker B:I'm sure you.
Speaker B:You probably heard me tell that story.
Speaker A:Before, but now as we talk about it, I think of something different.
Speaker A:I think of.
Speaker A:I think of if.
Speaker A:If you say there's no Anthony, then maybe Huining answers you.
Speaker A:There's only Anthony.
Speaker A:The whole universe is in you.
Speaker A:The whole universe has come through time and space to make up this unique.
Speaker A:This unique compilation of you.
Speaker A:And that's all you can know.
Speaker A:That's all you can ever know.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And the whole universe has conspired to put you in that body, in that time and space.
Speaker A:And it's all in you.
Speaker B:And we offer this to our listeners.
Speaker A:Yes, you are the listener.
Speaker B:There.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:There's no you, and there's only you.
Speaker B:Right at the same time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.
Speaker B:So we've said it before, but we're interested in your con.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:When did.
Speaker A:When did you have a moment of enlightenment?
Speaker A:Or what.
Speaker A:What on your path has helped you?
Speaker A:Or what are you struggling with?
Speaker A:Or what would.
Speaker A:What do you want to find a way around?
Speaker A:What has inspired you to find your authentic self?
Speaker A:What choices have you made in your life that help you go this way instead of that?
Speaker A:What maybe regrets?
Speaker A:What opportunities that you have in your life?
Speaker A:What is your experience in philosophy?
Speaker A:What is your experience?
Speaker A:Philosophy is a way of wisdom with a living conversation.
Speaker A:We want to know more about life, about how philosophy influences your life in its special context.
Speaker A:In the universe put into you, into your life, into your relationships, into your experience.
Speaker A:We want to know more of those.
Speaker B:And it's this idea or it's an interest of, you know, I, I always looked at this, this word philosophy and it's translated as knowledge or wisdom.
Speaker B:And I, I want to, I want to assist in transferring.
Speaker B:How does knowledge transform into wisdom?
Speaker B:Because wisdom, knowledge you could think about, but wisdom is something else.
Speaker B:It's something outside of thinking.
Speaker B:And that's part of what I think both Adam and I are interested for you is how do you find the way out beyond thinking to wisdom?
Speaker B:And to come back to the opening part of our show, how do we clean the bowl of all the stagnating stuff of thoughts and objects and that are old and allow that to make space for something that's always been there, but to show up in a way that you're no longer you, but you're only you.
Speaker B:You know, again, this is part of the joy I, I get and I think, Adam, you get it also.
Speaker B:And in, in working with philosophy, it's, it's this, this useless thing that can allow awareness to go beyond being caught.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, the, the, the narrow tree was useless, but because it was useless it fulfilled its great use.
Speaker A:So some people think philosophy is useless.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:They can think that they won't cut us down because they think it's useless.
Speaker A:But actually philosophy has a great use that can fulfill our own nature, can fulfill our all true nature.
Speaker A:I have as you were speaking, one way that they say to go past knowledge and into wisdom is also from Chuang Tzu for getting yourself.
Speaker B:Oh, that's right.
Speaker B:We'll talk about that next time, okay, because that's really a key point.
Speaker B:And we'll be back in a couple of weeks.
Speaker B:I'm Anthony Wright and I am your co host today on attunement Living conversation with my co host Adam Dietz.
Speaker B:And you can contact me at my website, theonaut T-H-E-O-N-A-T.com and Adam.
Speaker A:Yeah, contact me at deeds Adam D I E t z adam gmail.com or you can find me.
Speaker A:The main hub for most of my work is on substack so you can search for the way between on substack or type in the way between substack.com.
Speaker B:Great.
Speaker B:Well thank you so much for listening and watching us and we look forward to seeing you next time.
Speaker B:Bye now.
